Yo! Venice! Venice Beach, California

Forum

A A A

Please consider registering
guest

Log In Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search:

— Forum Scope —



— Match —



— Forum Options —




Wildcard usage:
*  matches any number of characters    %  matches exactly one character

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic RSS
Raelians Stir Up Controversy in Venice Beach
Read the original blog post
Topic Rating: 4Topic Rating: 4Topic Rating: 4Topic Rating: 4Topic Rating: 4 Topic Rating: 4 (32 votes) 
June 27, 2012
12:15 pm
Shane
Member
Forum Posts: 1816
Member Since:
June 16, 2009
Offline
13
5

Am I missing something?

The best way to promote the swastika is to put it in a Star of David?

June 27, 2012
1:44 pm
SaltWater
In the here and now
Member
Forum Posts: 1509
Member Since:
October 15, 2009
Offline
14
5

Shane said
Am I missing something?

Yeah Shane, kind'a…

What they're promoting is their udder lack of good taste. In other words, they're attention seeking jack-asses which is not illegal here in the U.S.. However, they do a pretty good job of relegating themselves to the outer fringes of kookdom which is testimony to the basic intelligence of the majority of Americans.

Funny how crap like that ain't tolerated where they come from in Europe. God bless the America.

I'm salty and that's what keeps me spicy ©

June 27, 2012
2:34 pm
Bret
Venice
Admin
Forum Posts: 7610
Member Since:
June 20, 2007
Offline
15
0

They were on the boardwalk too, Vivianne of NameonRice.com just added this video … 

June 27, 2012
3:21 pm
Venice Rob
Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
January 20, 2012
Offline
16
5

Bird Man of Venice said
Sadly, they are right.  The swastika is a religious symbol in Eastern religion that goes back centuries.  Hitler (if I recall correctly, particularly Hess) was into symbols and mythology.  They used a number of Norse symbols, such as the SS "lightning bolt" and other runes, as well as the swastika, but tended to pervert most of them.  In the case of the swastika, they did this by reversing the direction of the hooks on the arms.

Haven't studied the specific symbolism of the swastika, but if it is a symbol of eternity it would make sense why Hitler would have chosen it.  He felt his Reich was going to change the world forever.

Undoubtedly, the Nazis were brutal in the commission of atrocities, and have stained this symbol with the blood of millions.  Having said that, if a genocidal regime were to commit similar atrocities under a flag that contained the Star of David, I'm doubtful we would ban that symbol (or the cross either.)

It will take considerable public education to reverse the harm done by the Nazis.  I understand their position though, and wish them luck.  It would be nice to see one of the most negative symbols in the history of man restored to its proper meaning.

The lesson in all of this – as I've said many times – the problem with symbols is that they're so damn symbolic! :)

No matter how much you justify it, your never going to be able to wash the blood off that symbol. Hitler made sure of it. No matter how you slice it or who has used it in the past, present and future the swastika symbol is forever stained in human blood.

June 27, 2012
3:43 pm
Bird Man of Venice
Member
Forum Posts: 311
Member Since:
October 7, 2010
Offline
17
3

Unfortunately, most religious symbols seem to end up stained with blood at one time or another.  The cross of Christianity, for example.  There were these things called the Crusades, not to mention the Inquisition.  Plenty of blood on that symbol that can never be washed away.

I'm just not convinced that you should reasonably deny a legitimate religion the use of one of their symbols because it was widely used in an inappropriate fashion (I'm understating it) by a hate group (even if that's an entire country.)

The distinction, in my mind, is that Hitler took a legitimate religious symbol and used it, as opposed to a religion deciding after the fact to use a symbol and giving it a new meaning.  That's a very important distinction here.

I still think it is important to educate people that this symbol did (and does) have a positive meaning for many peoples in the world.  If you asked the average American walking down the street, how many of them would realize the history of the swastika beyond the stigma?  I'm willing to bet you would be lucky if it were one in ten.

We must absolutely condemn the 's and what they stood for.  Of course, to be consistent, how many people use their symbols in war movies (even casting them as the bad guys) to make money for themselves?  How many companies deal in memorabilia for a profit?  How many model kits of Tiger Tanks and Stukas are sold in hobby shops?

I think that, many times, our condemnation is not applied consistently.

June 27, 2012
4:29 pm
Venice Rob
Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
January 20, 2012
Offline
18
3.7

Bird Man of Venice said
Unfortunately, most religious symbols seem to end up stained with blood at one time or another.  The cross of Christianity, for example.  There were these things called the Crusades, not to mention the Inquisition.  Plenty of blood on that symbol that can never be washed away.

I'm just not convinced that you should reasonably deny a legitimate religion the use of one of their symbols because it was widely used in an inappropriate fashion (I'm understating it) by a hate group (even if that's an entire country.)

The distinction, in my mind, is that Hitler took a legitimate religious symbol and used it, as opposed to a religion deciding after the fact to use a symbol and giving it a new meaning.  That's a very important distinction here.

I still think it is important to educate people that this symbol did (and does) have a positive meaning for many peoples in the world.  If you asked the average American walking down the street, how many of them would realize the history of the swastika beyond the stigma?  I'm willing to bet you would be lucky if it were one in ten.

We must absolutely condemn the 's and what they stood for.  Of course, to be consistent, how many people use their symbols in war movies (even casting them as the bad guys) to make money for themselves?  How many companies deal in memorabilia for a profit?  How many model kits of Tiger Tanks and Stukas are sold in hobby shops?

I think that, many times, our condemnation is not applied consistently.

Their must be some mentally ill foundation I can donate money on your behalf. 

June 27, 2012
5:03 pm
Loren Lyons
Member
Forum Posts: 217
Member Since:
October 21, 2011
Offline
19
0

we can all take a break from our knee-jerk "i hate nazis and swastikas" position, i think we all share that sentiment.

 

so if you take the emotionality out of it bird man's arguments are logical and plausible.  accused of playing devil's advocate, or playing the edge, silly even, but mentally ill is an unworthy insult.  i don't agree with bird man on this, in fact his suggestions make me uneasy, but then so do KKK on parade.   But that is precisely the ignition-point where one learns something and improves one's own ideas and opinions for future rebuttals. and it is the bad part of the good that we have in terms of american rights

wouldn't you agree?

(though for what's worth, my opinion is also that the swastika, at least the german variation is beyond rehabilitation in this millennia)

June 28, 2012
7:16 am
cch
Member
Forum Posts: 513
Member Since:
August 18, 2010
Offline
20
5

I think we all should just think about the topless parade.

June 28, 2012
10:18 am
shadrack79
Member
Forum Posts: 4
Member Since:
December 29, 2011
Offline
21
1

I've hesitated to post on this topic.  But decided to after reading more comments.

While I don't completely agree with Bird Man either, I think it's important to consider something… I'm of Jewish decent.  My grandmother and grandfather on my father's side were both Jewish and my grandmother came to the US during WWII from Hungary.  I also just recently went on a trip to Seoul South Korea.  As we were walking around one of the many Buddhist temples that can be found in Seoul, I noticed a large swastika (rotated differently than what we associate with the swastika) on the side of a building.  I also noticed more on more buildings as I looked more closely.  While we were walking, there was a payer session in full swing.  I was in a serene area, surrounded by peace, prayer and safety.  I was also surrounded by quite a few swastikas.

At the time, I had no idea why they were there or what they meant or how something I associate with such horrifying atrocities could be so prevalent in a setting like a Buddhist temple.  Now I know that it is a symbol of peace, to this day for other religions.

Maybe those of us in the western world will never be able to look beyond the perversion of the symbol because of the nazis and Hitler.  But there are those that currently live a peaceful existence and worship next to or in front of this symbol.

I certainly don't approve or a group flying it above a public beach for the sake of attention. 

But maybe there's a lesson from eastern religion that can give us pause on what this symbol really means and has meant long before the nazis and Hitler came around an ruined it.

June 28, 2012
10:45 am
Riviera Max
Member
Forum Posts: 296
Member Since:
March 23, 2010
Offline
22
0

http://hragvartanian.com/wp-co…..g_3153.jpg

 

Interesting longtime debate over 1920's lamp posts in Glendale Ca.

   
June 28, 2012
10:50 am
Long_time_resident
Member
Forum Posts: 308
Member Since:
October 25, 2010
Offline
23
0

Interesting proposition.

 The swastika has been used both decoratively and symbolically since before history. It respresented many different things over time to people around the world. Continuing to use it for reasons unrelated to Hitler's party in the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's, and to neo NAZIs will over time restore the design as being one that has been used for many purposes. But for most people in the world at this time the symbol is associated both with Hitler's Germany and with white supremacist hate groups, so displaying can be an afront to many people.

In time, the swastika will go back to being just another symbol but it's thoughtless and unreasonable to expect to display it today without causing considerable unpleasantness for most people. The Raelians are being foolish in how they are trying to change public opinion by pushing it into people's perceptions.

June 28, 2012
11:33 am
Loren Lyons
Member
Forum Posts: 217
Member Since:
October 21, 2011
Offline
24
0

Long_time_resident said
Interesting proposition.

 

In time, the swastika will go back to being just another symbol but it's thoughtless and unreasonable to expect to display it today without causing considerable unpleasantness for most people. The Raelians are being foolish in how they are trying to change public opinion by pushing it into people's perceptions.

they seem to have foolish down pat in their short (founded 1974) and fantastical (aliens are waiting to for the coast to be clear before landing).  for me the latecomers, raelian and scientology, have even less credence than the established religions because they have no excuse for the BS they purport.  their ideas were formed in modern, advanced times, not amongst the goat and brush of nomadic times…  not that i give established religions credence, i just can sort of get where their ideas mutated from